Barb and I just got back from spending a week in Mazatlan, Mexico. It was partly a ministry trip, where we hung out with ministry team members there and spoke at one of the local churches ... and partly a vacation where we hung out by the pool at the resort on other days. Nice!
This strange thought popped into my head as I was getting ready this morning: We rarely ate “authentic” Mexican food. The word authentic was the key ... authentic Mexican food. So I looked up the word authentic.
Aw-then-tic 1. a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based on fact <paints an authentic picture of our society>
b : conforming to an original so as to reproduce essential features <an authentic reproduction of a colonial farmhouse>
c : made or done the same way as an original <authentic Mexican fare>
So only on a couple of occasions did we eat, I guess, what I would call authentic Mexican food. We were in Mexico, and all the food was prepared by real Mexican people, served by Mexican servers ... but it was a cheeseburger! Could it have been an authentic Mexican cheeseburger? Did not have any peppers on it (I am a sissy with hot stuff) ... no guacamole ... on a regular old bun ... American cheese. Nope, not authentic, I suppose.
Got me thinking. Aren’t we all looking for the real thing (not Coca-Cola)? Don’t we all want authentic?
In the church, don’t we all want to be authentic followers of Jesus? Genuine, real? Conforming to an original? I would think so ... at least most of us would say so.
I am sure some of us are content going to church, giving a little and then going home feeling like our duty is done for the week. Many of us want to do it the same way as the original ... not easy. (We tend to forget that it cost our original, Jesus, his life.)
In the church we have many ideas what this looks like. I have a friend who wrote a book titled, “Jesus Brand Spirituality,” and let’s face it -- this is what we are looking for. Again, it is someone’s idea of what that looks like ... his brand of spirituality. I have seen the books on being “red letter” Christians, you know the ones who follow closely the words of Jesus. Nice.
I have been around the guys who still follow the Old Testament and others who are only into the New Testament. We all have an opinion on what an authentic believer or church looks like. It always looks like the one we hang out at. Isn’t that amazing? I mean, no one would be a part of a church that we would say, “This place is not real. It is really fake. I love it!” At least I hope not.
Now in my own tribe I think we would say we are really trying to do the words and the works of Jesus. We at the Vineyard Church of Toledo are one of those strange groups who pray for healing ... who believe God still speaks today ... who might prophesy ... shed a few tears during worship. You know the kind. Strange. Believes the Bible to be God’s word. His love story to a fallen world. (I am not promoting my church, just saying we like who we are too!)
Bill Hybels says that the local church is the hope of the world ... and yet there are always voices telling us we need to change, we need to get cooler, we need to connect to culture.
I think it may be time to quit looking so inward at who we are as individual church families and try to see the larger family of God. The whole church, not just our piece.
What if we began to celebrate our differences rather than separate because of them? We are very much a rock and roll kind of place, but I love going into the cathedrals around us, to go to St. Paul’s Lutheran in Maumee to celebrate Christmas Eve in a different way. To go to an Ash Wednesday service, because I don’t really know what that is about. We don’t do liturgy, but others do and do it so well. Not competition ... family.
Every Sunday we pray for another local church. It reminds us we are not all that special, just a part of something big ... real ... authentic ... with many expressions.
I prayed for a church nearby a couple of weeks ago that I knew could get me in a bit of hot water because of some of the stances they take in the community and with scripture. I didn’t pray for them to change ... just prayed for them. As a part of the body. Do I agree with them now? No ... but I sensed God leading. We probably will never agree on many things ... one of us would have to change their mind ... probably not going to happen. OK. Let’s move on.
I think the difference would be this: We would say, “Come as you are and you will be loved.” And you will be loved ... loved into a relationship with Jesus that will bring change.
Change. We don’t like that thought at all. How do we come into his presence and stay the same as we were?
When I came to Christ I came to realize one woman was my limit ... not two or three. One. I had to change my 70s opinion and lifestyle. No one told me ... it is in the book ... and his Spirit began changing my heart. If I had really felt fulfilled before my Christ encounter I would not have considered changing. And then to be with this one woman we needed to be married, not co-habitating. Married.
Now this is the kicker: We see marriage as ... ready ... I know this will leave a mark ... one man and one woman. I think this is an authentic view of marriage. Going to the very front of the book. Now if you do not believe in the book, it really does not matter then does it? But if you do?
Now I wish we had spent more time looking for authentic Mexican food ... and I will continue to pursue the original ... to endeavor to become authentic. Not in a separatist kind of manner, an us and them model. It's just because I think that is what we do: Pursue the master, to become like Him.
There are plenty of copies of copies out there. I want the original. I want to be authentic. Don’t you?










Josie Setzler | Mar 9, 2013 | 11:38am
I like your idea of “authentic…with many expressions.” When I got to the last part about who gets married, I thought to myself that the authentic core of marriage might be love and faithfulness. Would those virtues be the “original” or the “essential features?” If so, then that is what I would wish for the partners in same-sex marriage as well as heterosexual marriage. It seems as if we would all benefit from recognizing and encouraging their commitment to love and faithfulness. Frank Bruni’s column in today’s Blade is a thoughtful piece on this topic.
Bill Herzog | Mar 9, 2013 | 6:02pm
Thanks Josie…thank you for reading the article. Your comment is well said. I guess I have to point again to scripture…if you believe in that. If not then I surely an see how you feel about marriage being built on “love and faithfulness” being the core of the marriage relationship. But if we build on scripture then from the front of the book to the back we see marriage being between a man and woman. It is kind of like nature itself points to that relationship being the center of creation.
I do not want to sound to simplistic but if it all began with Adam and Steve….it ends there doesn’t it? How do go on from there?
Committed relationships are awesome…friendships are essential…why marriage? Heck heterosexuals aren’t doing so hot in that are…and people in the church are just as poor at that as those not in church.
I guess even if I believed in the Big Bang theory or evolution…the way we are made…evolved?....points to how we seem to work the best. Doesn’t it?
Henry Nouwen a awesome author and Catholic scholar said he new he was attracted to the same sex…he had to decide to deny those feelings. It is not politically correct to talk about denying ourselves…heterosexual or gay…whatever makes us happy is what we should do. Not how I read Jesus words.
Also when I write I figure I am mostly writing for those in the church…and many there do not agree with me…but I have to challenge us to build on scripture…why do we suppose we can be nicer than God…who is love?
Anyway thanks again for your comments…
seibertcraig@hotmail.com | Mar 10, 2013 | 5:53pm
” What if we began to celebrate our differences rather than separate because of them? ” . I really like this statement ! I say it as ” unity amidst diversity ” . One could certainly see this in the hundreds of Christian families / churches and I like to think of mankind in this respect..all of us together . As there is only one God and all of mankind is God’s children .
When I was a little kid in our large Protestant church , one day after the service , I asked the minister who Allah is . I had watched a film about the French Foreign Legion fighting Arabs the night before . I’ll always cherish what he said to me…Allah is another name for God Craig..There are many names for God .
bill herzog | Mar 11, 2013 | 4:02pm
Nice Craig…the thing is I do celebrate the differences…in style of worship…male and female. I have no problem with that at all. My basic thought is do we believe scripture and what it says or not? Again if someone does not see the Bible as begin relevant then they see things different than I do…and that is OK by me…it is a choice we all have to make.
Not sure how Allah got in there but that is fine. I kind of assume what I write here will mostly challenge followers of Jesus. Don’t think I am smart enough to tackle religion and culture…
Thank you for reading and commenting.
Bill
seibertcraig@hotmail.com | Mar 12, 2013 | 6:56am
I think for me bill, my ministers comment pointed to inclusiveness vs exclusiveness
That we are all children of God . Loved equally and beautifully by God .
In Toledo , as I remember , interfaith groups included different denominations of Protestants celebrating their differences and their unity . Now , my experience of one interfaith group here include both Protestant and Catholic Christians , Moslem’s , Jews , Buddhists , Baha’is , Hindus , Native American faiths and so on . In short I believe that all religions come form God . And of course , I realize most people in our country who believe in God are Christians .
PastorLuke | Mar 12, 2013 | 10:26am
Love everything you write here, it really fits with my thoughts of “Unity not uniformity” or as Craig put it “unity within diversity.” But then you lost me when you put in the marriage part…
Do you really want to argue that?
There are other 8 types of marriage found in the pages of the bible. Here’s a handy little meme for ya as well. Which of these is “an authentic view of marriage.”?
PastorLuke | Mar 12, 2013 | 4:16pm
Nope, it was for you.
“Maybe not all things we might agree with today…“And yet are all authentic versions of marriage? I don’t think so.
And what about authentic slavery? I mean human trafficking is a big deal, especially in our area. The Bible supports slavery, never condemns it. It assumes it. So the abolitionists had a hard time arguing against the Bible. Yet they were right. And we celebrate their efforts.
I don’t think the Bible says anything explicit about diabetes, bipolar disorder, autism, or high blood pressure. Those were categories unknown to people in Bible times. Similarly, I don’t think the Bible says anything explicit about the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, the Libertarian Party, etc., because again, those categories are alien to people in Bible times. And I don’t believe a category like “sexual orientation” would ever have entered the mind of people in biblical times. They didn’t have it.
And yet we now know it’s not a choice and some estimated 8% of the population is attracted to the same sex. Looks like Josie is right, “we would all benefit from recognizing and encouraging their commitment to love and faithfulness.” It would be authentic to their nature and to the very definition of the word authentic.
So one man and one woman is the definition of marriage for you cause you’re an authentic heterosexual. As am I. Yet what about the authentic homosexual? I mean, asking all homosexuals to be celibate is as absurd as asking all hetero-sexual couples who can’t or don’t want to have children to remain celibate. That’s not authentic to how God made them. But advocating for committed, life-long loving relationships would be the key to an authentic marriage.
bill herzog | Mar 12, 2013 | 7:41pm
Ahhh Pastor Luke. First of all thank you again for reading and responding to article. I am really honored you read and took time to respond. And as I respond back please be assured I am not going to be angry or arrogant with my words…even though that is hard to discern through the written word just know I enjoy reading what you have to say
and enjoy the chance to dialogue a bit. And as a pastor, I figure by the e mail address you are a pastor, I will challenge some of what you say here..
First I have to wonder where does all the Democrat, Republican, Libertarian thought come in to play here? you aren[t trying to confuse the issue here are you? After all if you read my bio I am just a former factory worker not a professional clergy type…or all that smart:) Diabetes, bipolar, autism,etc.????? I am sure there is a point there…not getting it.
Slavery? Great point…I am a part of a tribe who ordain and license women in ministry…not real popular in some church circles…and we do argue a cultural argument here…slavery…the injustice of a man or woman being bought and sold….inhuman. I get it. And I am so glad people took up those causes to point out the injustice of what was going on. Civil rights movement….I was a kid as Dr. King took to the streets to defeat the evil behind evil laws that would hold people back because of the color of their skin. Injustice…got it.
Now i have to ask and I do not want to put you on the spot but how do you view scripture? That is a big part of my point…I agree some tried to support slavery from scripture but the over all story of God debunked that. But how do we ignore the first story on our book…God created male and female…and told them to replenish the earth? You are so right when you say you don’t believe there is a category for sexual orientation in Biblical times. I agree! It appears to me God settled that with Adam and Eve…I assume He was saying this is how this works boys and girls. Two Adams and we do not even have to worry about the serpent…we are done anyway! Is this just a fairy tale…How do we overlook Romans 1…and 1 Cor.6:9 to name a few. How?
It is not authentic to be celibate? No one is asking the married couple to stay celibate…not sure how that fits. But i would ask my teen age youth group…or the divorcee…or the widower. Is restraint a bad thing? Is choosing to live against the whims of a society that says whatever makes you happy do it? That is unfair? If your teenage daughter comes to you and talks about her feeling for her boy friend would you give her words of caution and how to put things in place to keep her pure? Or help her get a contraceptive? If she is older now and still not married…now it is OK to experiment? You have me a bit confused here for sure. Purity is not a biblical point of view? So asking a person who has same sex feeling to consider purity over indulgence as unfair? Whoo boy…I must be getting old. And you sound pretty sure that this is not a choice…nothing concrete on that…sorry. I think it is a choice…even then…is abstaining not a choice?
I am child of the 70’s and I know the free love speeches by heart…and I see where it has gotten us. Some spoiled athlete with 10 kids by 9 different moms…abortion as birth control.
I believe God is love…not just loving…He is love…His very being is love. He is good. I only have a small view…cannot see what He sees at all. Do I think He loves the gay community….without a doubt…He loves the wall street guy who is over run with greed also…He loves the person who waves those horrible God Hate——- signs too. I cannot understand that one…but He does. But when I come to Christ He says to me…old things dies…all things become new. Jesus says I have to die to myself….that He might live. In my weakness…His strength shows…and I know this is not an over night deal for most of us…wasn’t for me….still on the journey. But He seems to be telling me change is a way of life for me…us…I find little hope in a religion, and I do not think Christianity was ever to be a religion but this is our language, but a religion that asks nothing of its followers is a step below a club. I gave up clubs…well I still have golf clubs:)
Thanks Pastor Luke…it really means a lot to me you read the article and have expressed our views.
Blessings
PastorLuke | Mar 14, 2013 | 12:34pm
It seems as though we do not agree on much. I hope to continue this discussion with grace and challenge. I also assume that you’re honestly following Christ and I hope you see that I am as well.
For I once thought as you did. I made the natural argument, I believed it was a choice, and argued much the same way as you did. Then my best friend came out. Then I realized that a cousin had been gay for years but never told anyone. Then I realized a whole ton of things and did a lot of research on this subject as well as scripture reading.
Now I have been transformed by the renewing of my mind. I do believe God loves LGBTQ people just as you believe. However, how we show that love and what constitutes just behavior is where we disagree. The ethics part.
“Now i have to ask and I do not want to put you on the spot but how do you view scripture?”
-It is inspired. (2 Timothy 3:16) But that is all it says. Nothing about infallible or inerrant. I don’t go that far. Do you? As Karl Barth put it, “The Bible is not The Word of God, it is Man’s word about God. It contains the word of God.” So I think we might be approaching scripture very differently. It is authoritative, but it can be wrong, as it was on slavery. As it was on the dietary laws which it was revealed to Peter in Acts. It wasn’t “natural” to eat certain things, but God over turned that, right?
“But how do we ignore the first story on our book…God created male and female…and told them to replenish the earth?”
-This is where I’m getting the hetero-couples who won’t or can’t reproduce. What would you have them do?
The traditional call would state that “marriage is for procreation.” And thus if a couple can’t procreate then they must remain celibate and show restraint. This was Catholic teaching up until the turn of the last century. So if this is true, and you’ve said a few times in your comments that this seems to constitute a “real” marriage, then why shouldn’t non-reproducing hetero-couples either be denied marriage or asked to remain celibate? Restraint is a good thing, but you’re asking it from one group and not another. Other than homophobia or at the very least a hetero-bias, I don’t see why you wouldn’t ask one non-reproducing subset of the population to restrain than another.
As for Romans and 1st Corinthains, I also read the Bible being more about me than speaking to “those people over there.” Big difference in approach. The Romans is about an assumption of natural, as does your “Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve” reductionist approach.
Now, I don’t know about you, but I follow a God who raised a dude from the dead, I think we can throw “what’s natural” right out the window. Plus if it’s natural to be homosexual, and it is as modern scientific studies have shown time and time again since 1991 and thus is my assumption, then it would be unnatural for them to marry the opposite sex and thus fit Paul’s argument. Plus if it’s about me and not “them” then how does this apply to me? How would you answer that question? I have my own idea about it.
1st Corinthians is about excess and exploitation as shown in the Greek. Helps if you go to the original language instead of the translated version. Malakoi (often translated as effeminate) means “soft” like in fabric. This word was slang to describe heterosexual men who dress up. Metrosexual would be a good modern use. Arsenakoita (often translated You can read about the other “clobber passages” on my blog here: http://associatedluke.blogspot.com/2011/12/clobber-passages.html which also includes more studies you can read about the bio-chemical, neurological, and behavioral issues involved with being gay and how it’s not a choice. It is authentically who they are.
Plus, why would anyone CHOOSE to be picketed, hated, excommunicated from their family of origin, preached against from pulpits, and have a higher suicide rate than average? Doesn’t make sense. Those I have spoken to with little exception have stated that they have known since birth. Just as I have known I have been hetero all my life. Bill, when did you choose to be straight? I’ve never made that choice.
PastorLuke | Mar 14, 2013 | 2:13pm
Oh, and don’t misunderstand me. I am not advocating for free-love, anti-purity, or anything. I’m about restraint. I am for setting the same sexual ethics and standards:namely a life-long commitment to a relationships affirmed and supported by family, friends, and faith community that operates on the grounds of consensual, life-giving, and loving ethics which I believe are Biblical. The difference is, I want that for both our LGBTQ brothers and sisters as it is for we straight peeps. Note I say nothing about reproduction in there. Thus, that isn’t a ready purpose for marriage (although studies have shown that stable relationships, aka marriage, produce healthier, happier, and smarter children and is incredibly important in raising children). So unless you want to argue that point (marriage is for procreation), then it begs the question once again: What would you have hetero-couples who won’t or can’t reproduce since they are not an authentic marriage?
And if you don’t, then cool.
Blessings.
Bill Herzog | Mar 15, 2013 | 8:36am
Yep Pastor Luke….we have probably figured out we do not see things the same…but I would assume also there would be much we would agree on. And I do so appreciate how you have responded with civility and calmness…so often in discussion like this many finally fall on name calling and bullying to get their point across. We have not gone there…thank you.
Sigh…but how do we have an authoritative word that is filled with mistakes…and who gets to decide what is right or wrong? If it is not the “word of God” what is it. We have turned the 10 commandments into 10 suggestions…the very book you say is not reliable was used over and over to point out how Jesus fulfilled the prophetic voices in the OLd Testament. If it is not reliable then why Jesus at all…we can explain away the original sin as some man made philosophy to keep man kind down and filled with shame. How do we “renew our minds” with out the word of God? What is it renewed to?
I feel your pain with your friend and your cousin coming out…and I know as a good friend you are there for them…not judging…there. Awesome. And out of your compassion for family and friends…you renewed your mind…so it would be better for them. Got it. Not sure that should be the motivation behind change but I get it. And if scripture is unreliable then I also see how you can change your mind here…but I don’t see it as unreliable. It is challenges me and is difficult at times for sure…but if it is not a sure word…then we are really wasting time aren’t we? And we have made Christianity the one thing that drove Jesus crazy…a religion.
So much more I would love to touch on but I think it is time to let it rest…although the world we live in is never going to let this rest. I guess I would ask you this…since I think much of your argument here is based on sex drive and attraction…where does this end? I am not going to open this up here but I wonder what is next? And if our source towards the knowledge of God is flawed where would I point anyone? I have to admit as I finish this out it is kind of depressing…I will leave you with this…and I think you will recognize it. Sola Scriptura…Martin Luther made a big deal out of this I think…but it cannot be if scripture is unreliable.
PastorLuke | Mar 17, 2013 | 8:27am
“And we have made Christianity the one thing that drove Jesus crazy…a religion.”
-Amen! One of my favorite authors, Robert Capon stated, ““Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is the proclamation of the end of religion, not of a new religion, or even of the best of all religions. …If the cross is the sign of anything, it’s the sign that God has gone out of the religion business and solved all of the world’s problems without requiring a single human being to do a single religious thing. What the cross is actually a sign of is the fact that religion can’t do a thing about the world’s problems – that it never did work and it never will…” – The Mystery of Christ … and Why We Don’t Get It, p. 62
Martin Luther was a humanist and scholastic. When he stated Sola Scriptura he was still assuming using the critical methods to interpret. I am of the tradition that uses it. We understand that we can’t pick up the Bible and read it and expect to know what it’s going to say because of our social location, our different culture, and original sin. There must be a method which sheds us of these things. And while no where perfect, the critical methods are a good start.
And note I never stated scripture is unreliable. The Bible is indeed our inspired and authoritative guide in all things. However, it must be balanced with science. The Bible is often made an idol. I caution against that. Words like infallible and inerrant, well I don’t think the Bible is because it never uses those words itself, and it says time and time again that WE are fallible and errant, and since we’re the one’s reading it… it goes to say.
So where does this leave us? As Rumi stated, “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,. there is a field. I’ll meet you there.” Or as Paul stated, “Faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love.”
If you’re reading the Bible or experiencing God and you get puffed up, odds are you’re on the wrong track. If you’re reading the Bible or experiencing God and you feel emptied out, then you’re on the right track.
PastorLuke | Mar 17, 2013 | 9:28am
I appreciate this conversation and indeed the civil tone. You raise excellent questions and good points. I see your heart is in the right place and we can disagree with love in our eyes. If you would ever like to continue in real time, you have my blog and contact information. A meeting for coffee and pondering would be most welcome, I’m always up for meeting fellow travelers.
Denis Eble | Mar 17, 2013 | 10:26am
Gentlemen, I have been watching this biblical tennis match for several days now and I’d like to interject a few ideas of my own. I note that both of you hold the Bible in high esteem and freely quote it to bolster your points. Of course, some say that a person can find any point of view between the covers of that book.
Tonight on TV there begins a new series titled, the Bible. I won’t be watching; it is too painful for me to see myth and midrash portrayed as fact. Yet for those who ‘believe’ that the Bible is, somehow, the word of God, the show will reinforce their Sunday school lessons and verify the veracity of that book.
So, when I read the two of you spar over ‘truth’ during your friendly dialogues, I have to shake my head. Apparently both of you believe that what is written between the covers of that book is, pardon the pun, God’s truth. How can mere mortal man know the mind of God?
Bill herzog | Mar 17, 2013 | 3:00pm
Thank you Pastor Luke…and we will do coffe sometime…for sure. Denis…just knowing you read the article and all of the comments has made my day. Thank you very much.
PastorLuke | Mar 17, 2013 | 7:05pm
“How can mere mortal man know the mind of God?”
-In part, yes. Completely, no. Never not ever.
Referring to “that book” which we Bill and I hold in high esteem, I am reminded of Paul’s words in Romans 11:33-34:
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
Or to put it another way, “all conclusions are preliminary.” This is why we need one another.
Bill brings a POV I don’t.
As do you.
Hence the need for discussions, articles, debates, etc. For that is church to me: A community dedicated to working on the big questions we know we’ll never solve. The rabbinic tradition informs me, the Bible is what we argue over. The Bible isn’t exactly the point, it’s the conversation starter of the “BIG QUESTIONS” or “THE CONVERSATION” which started long before any of us on this website were thought of. And it will continue on without us.
We are made for one another. The rabbis also used to say that most important scripture of all is toldot (Gen 2:4) “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth.” It shows we are all brothers and sisters, members of the same family. It takes everyone of us. And even then, all conclusions are preliminary.
Denis Eble | Mar 17, 2013 | 9:28pm
Pastor Luke. I’m guessing that your quoting Scripture in reply to my snub of the Bible was a joke.
PastorLuke | Mar 18, 2013 | 9:23am
No idea you were snubbing it.
Denis Eble | Mar 18, 2013 | 1:46pm
‘Snubbing’ may have been an awkward word. Rather, I have little confidence that the Bible actually says anything about God. What it says is quite a lot about the mind of humans who project their fears and desires onto a deity.
The God which I imagine would not have done nor said the awful things that are purportedly attested to in the Bible. God gets a bad rap for the failings of us humans. Rather than referring to it as ‘the word of God,’ it should be referred to as ‘the word of frightened humans.’
PastorLuke | Mar 18, 2013 | 2:25pm
I read ya Denis. The Bible described as “Humans fumbling for the divine” I totally get and agree with to a rather great degree. Not everything in the Bible is a good idea.
You remind me of your question that I was responding to: “How can mere mortal man know the mind of God?”
-Given that we can barely communicate with each other (see our initial give and take), and we rarely know or want to acknowledge our own dirty little behaviors and patterns of behavior, then the mind of the ground of all being… forget it. But let’s keep trying and in the process we will find ourselves and each other.
Add Your Comment